Today I’m going to discuss the PVE Raiding Combat Build (20/51/0) I use, why most Combat rogues are using it and the rotation that I utilize to consistently top or be near the top of the damage meters.
Smashing 10man Toravon
20/51/0 Ruptureless
Weapons
Main Hand: Sword – Slow
Off Hand: Axe – Fast
Poisons
Main Hand: Instant
Off Hand: Deadly
Glyphs
Eviscerate
Sinister Strike
Killing Spree
BUILD
Combat has always been regarded as the mainstay rogue PVE talent tree
and continues to remain a strong option in WotLK. I choose a Combat PVE build over one of the viable Mutilate builds, mainly due to the playstyle of Combat builds. I like the builds flexibility in having both multi-target dps potential through abilities like Killing Spree (KS), Blade Flurry (BF) and Fan of Knives (FoK) and also great single target dps.
With the poison buffs Blizzard has implemented in patch 3.3 we have seen a move from the popular 15/51/5 Combat build to the more poison focused 20/51/0 Combat build. The buff to Deadly Poison in patch 3.3 ensures that Deadly Poison will now proc Instant Poison once it has reached 5 stacks on a target. This means that Combat rogues have returned to using Instant Poison instead of Wound Poison on their Main Hand weapon, and continue to place Deadly Poison on a fast Off Hand weapon to ensure fast stacking of Deadly Poison and triggering Instant Poison thereafter.
The added benefit from poisons has shown to increase dps when putting points in [Vile Poisons] and [Improved Poisons] instead of the popular and reliable [Relentless Strikes]. Rogues that choose to stay with [Relentless Strikes] can continue to use Wound Poison as they will not have the appropriate Instant Poison buffs available in the Assassination Tree to take full advantage of the patch 3.3 changes. However with the lack of poison dependency 15/51/5 rogues will be unable to complete equally with 20/51/0 rogues on single target encounters.
ROTATION
Once you get the hang of your Combat build and the special abilities that come with it you will realize that there is really no set rotation that you must strictly follow. To be honest it is quite simple to use, but takes time and experience to master.
What I do in a raid environment:
- First thing I do is Tricks of the Trade (TotT) on the tank. I have a focus macro setup for this.
- I will then usually start with a Garrotte and then get Slice and Dice (SnD) up straight away (it is very important that you do not let SnD fall off as it increases your dps significantly).
- If I start out, out-of-stealth I will do a Sinister Strike (SS) and similarly get SnD up.
- Now depending on what type of scenario you are in I do either of the following:
- Single Trash target
- I will SS until 5 combo points (cp) are accumulated and then use Eviscerate (if SnD is still up). However on trash mobs you will usually not get to 5 cps.
- Multiple Trash targets
- If there are more than 2 targets I will hit FoK and then KS if it is up. I will then spam FoK. Usually trash mobs in Heroics die very fast so there is no need to blow all your cds on a single group. I usually alternate KS and BF between groups and spam FoK. If you notice only one target alive switch to SS. Always make sure SnD is up. I time my AR so that I always have it up for the Bosses. (I find that AR is not very effective on trash mobs in Heroics anyway because they go down way to fast to make full use of the ability)
- For harder-to-kill trash mobs such as those in ICC I pretty much follow the same strategy. I hit FoK and then KS if it is up. I then hit AR and BF and continue spamming FoK (make sure that you are targeting your tank’s target). I blow all my cds as fast as possible because ICC mobs have a lot of HP and it takes a while for them to go down so stacking your abilities on these guys ensures your dps goes through the roof! It usually takes about 30-40 seconds to down an ICC trash group so you will at least have KS available for every group you face (if you have the KS glyph) and BF for every second group.
- Boss
- For tank-n-spank boss fights such as Saurfang or Festergut I hit SS a couple of times after SnD is up after initial contact then hit KS and blow my other cooldowns thereafter. I then spam SS until 5 cps and Eviscerate if SnD is still up. I TotT the tank when it is up and use my abilities as soon as they come off cooldown.
Remember!
- Refresh your TotT on your tank when it is up.
- Dismantle when possible to ease the pressure on tanks. Interrupt the target through Kick whenever possible. I.E DeathWhisper in ICC or Jaraxxus in ToC.
- For mobs that aoe such as the skeletons in ICC use Feint right before they explode as it halves the damage you receive. This eases the healers job and can save your life in situations.
- Make sure SnD is up at all times. If not get it up asap
- Never use KS with AR because you will cap out on Energy. Similarly only use KS when you have low Energy.
Summary
As you can see there is no strict rotation Combat rogues follow and it does vary depending on your situation. Most important thing to note is to always keep your SnD up as this provides a signifcant boost to your dps. Vary the number of combo points you SnD depending on when it is about to fall off. Use your special abilities (KS, BF, AR) as often as possible and during the right situations. Eviscerate at 5 cps. Never use KS with AR. Use FoK when fighting more than two targets and lastly don’t forget to TotT your tank whenever it is up.
If you liked this post please rate and leave any comments that you may have. I would love to hear from other rogues about the rotations they use and the success they have had with them. Thanks for reading.
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(31 votes, average: 4.81 out of 5)
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Sorry if this is a complete noob question, but what does DR stand for? I have a rogue and can’t figure it out for the life of me…
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Skorne Reply:
May 17th, 2010 at
Thanks for pointing that out Aaron. It is a misprint and should actually be AR (adrenaline rush).
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Super guide – Ill have to try it out asap.
One question though – could you please link your specific 20/51/0 build, as I have found several different builds when searching for 20/51/0.
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Oops – found it hidden between to two pics at the top – sorry:)
Great guide
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Awesome guide. You answered all my questions
Thanks very much, may the FoK be with you!
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Oh, one more thing. I heard that doing an Envenom -> KS combo is nice. T/F?
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Skorne Reply:
May 23rd, 2010 at
Hey Full,
Use envenom instead of eviscerate if you’re mut spec and put points in Master Poisoner. It’s not advisable to use if you’re Combat specced as it consumes your deadly poison stacks.
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hey, thank you, been looking for a thorough and educated guide!
Just wondering (nub question) do attack speed and/or haste CDs stack? I play troll so with Berserking and BF and trinks I have a lot of haste CDs, just wondering if I should spread them out?
Thanks!
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Oh, one more question:
Why the one point in Vile poisons? Seems mostly wasted if we’re not going to envenom. Does Improved Poisons usefulness cap at 4 pts? Or is there just nowhere else useful to put it?
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Hi Thum,
I am almost certain that all haste items/buffs stack. This includes SnD, BF, trinkets, racials and potions. If you want to test it just check the character screen next time you use them and you will see that they do stack.
In regards to your poisons question, firstly the patch buffs to poisons make it more viable to have points in those talents instead of Relentless Strikes. Rogues are putting 1 point in Vile Poisons simply because the poison damage outweighs the extra chance to apply poison if you were to have 5/5 in Improved Poisons. Check a spreadsheet if you are still unsure
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Great guide, thanks
only one question,
What gems do you use?
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Hia.. im leveling my first rogue ever( usually suck on melee) What glyphs do you recomend with this build
Thank for this great page
/Henric
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Hi Luke,
Check out my article “Gemming for PVE rogues – patch 3.3.3″ for more info on gemming.
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Hi Rhoger,
The glyphs I use with my Combat build are – Eviscerate, Sinister Strike, Killing Spree.
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Hey, can you be Combat and use duel daggers? Because i can’t find any good swords / Axes / Maces / fist weapons :S
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Skorne Reply:
June 21st, 2010 at
Hey Sloth,
It’s not really a good idea to use daggers with a combat build due to the fast weapon speed and hence low base damage of the weapon. You need a slow MH weapon preferably 2.6 for Combat to be an effective build. There are quite a few weapons that you can easily pick up such as the swords and axes in the ICC 5 mans, the mace in H TOC 5 man, and then later on axes and sword from ICC 10 man.
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Fantastic Article!
Thank you
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Hey. A great guide. I was looking for something like this for a long time.
I have a question about offhand weapon:
- I am using 2 slow axes (nighttime).
So the fast offhand should be only because of the combat potency talent, right? As I remmember, the poisons apply at a better % rate with a slow weapon, so it is not just the poisons.
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Skorne Reply:
July 5th, 2010 at
Hey Andrew,
I definitely recommend you getting a fast offhand weapon. The buff to Deadly Poison in patch 3.3 ensures that Deadly Poison procs Instant Poison once it has reached 5 stacks on a target so a fast offhand weapon is essential to ensure fast stacking of Deadly Poison. You should see a nice increase in dps once you swap your slow offhand out.
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Hi, nice, well written guide. Did i miss it or wouldn’t you reccommend using the BF KS combo as it is supposed to improve dps during KS by about 30%?
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Skorne Reply:
July 5th, 2010 at
Hey Sneakeh,
Yeah using BF with KS does lift your dps and I do combine the two in raids when AR is on CD however my personal preference is to combine BF with AR.
From my experience I wouldn’t recommend using BF with KS in Heroics because trash mobs die very fast so there is no need to blow all your cds on a single group.
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Great thread! I knew the most of it, but thx alot:)
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Thank you so much for this guide it has helped me understand combat rogues more I’m gonna go respec right now!!
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Nice thread, I use a 20/51/0 myself. I found that for trash mobs, the BF – KS combo is GREAT after a TotT on the tank. It helps them lock down all targets asap.
For single target bosses, I have a trinket that I pop for haste after a 5 combo SnD is up, along with my AR. As I spam the heck out of SS, I am hiting with both weapons, Sub-1 sec and putting alot of pain on the target. I’ve found that using this out DPS’s people with GS’s 400-500 pts higher than myself. I have a 5422 right now with only 3 T10 pieces, and I pull about 7.1k in ICC.
Mute is good and all but 9 times out of 10 are looking up the Recount list at a Combat Rogue.
People say that I fight more like a fury warrior in leather, but never argue the results.
-Hooli Mal’Ganis
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thanks alot mate been lookin around for a good roation will try it out
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